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Translation : Kian Abbasi
About this talk: Professor Ravandi, the contemporary
Iranian historian and researcher and the writer of the
10-volume book of "the Social History of Iran", is a
prominent name Iranian culture. It was a pleasant
coincidence that made out families to make acquaintance in
1989 and fortunately because of the friendliness of the
Master and his wife this acquaintance turned to be a
friendship and lasted for a long time. In one of the family
gathering when we asked him to let us to take films from him
he agreed kindly. We were happy since we knew he was not a
man of mass media interviews (seemingly the only published
interview with him was done by Chista Magazine in 1998 and
it has been republished in Iran Didar, the present issue).
Of course we didn't mean a press interview because at that
time we were not thinking of publishing a monthly magazine.
Therefore we did the interview in a family gathering and we
meant to add this treasure o the spiritual treasures of our
family. Here, we are publishing the interview that took
place sometime near the end of Bahman 1998, after 9 years
for the first time. It took one hour and it was 8 month
before this great man passed away. Some parts of this
interview that has never been published have been omitted
due to the present condition. The words have been written
down from a handy cam tape
.May
he be always highly spoken of.
Mehrdad Shamshirbandi
Dr. Sayed Abbas Mesbah: Professor, you have started writing
books since you were thirty years old, is that true?
Professor Ravandi: yes… I was not so useful for the
government during my career as a judge! I took advantage
from it. Since it was commanded by the Security Organization
not to refer important t jobs to me, I welcomed the
situation and went to retirement department of registry
organization. It was a big room with many different people
there including a bunch of thieves and corrupted people and
I was among them too! I paid someone thirty Tomans to go and
sign for me. I used to go to the National Library or the
Library of the Parliament and made notes. It was forty years
ago.
Dr. Mesbah: I suppose late Mr. Etesamolmolk, the father of
Parvin Etesami, was the head of the Library of the
Parliament. Am I right?
Professor Ravandi: yes, it could be so…
Vali olah Shamshirbandi: It seems Mr. Iraj Afshar had helped
you a lot?
Professor Ravandi: Iraj Afshar was in the National Library.
Well, he was neither my friend nor my enemy. We knew each
other slightly and I respected him, but we were not so
intimate that he thinks: well this book is of use to
Ravandi, so let me give it to him. Nit was not like that. I
would search in the incomplete lists of books in the
National library and the Library of the Parliament and
select the ones I thought might be related to my favorite
major and sometimes I borrowed them.
Vali olah Shamshirbandi: were the source books in Persian?
Professor Ravandi: mostly, and a few of them were in French.
There are numerous source books about Iran, if someone is a
real thinker. But you have to be patient. You have to read a
book of five hundred pages to extract two or three pages and
sometimes a few lines even. It depends on the book and the
aim of the reader.
Dr. Mesbah: why and hoe did you feel a gap in the history of
Iran?
Professor Ravandi: the history of Iran was in fact the
history of the kings, battles and failures, but there was no
sign of the nation who lived in the heart of this history. I
thought about this. Of course at first it was raw and
intangible, I worked on it and then fortunately I could
collect a lot of materials after thirty years. Then I
divided it into parts. One part was political and the other
was on classes, because the society of Iran was not a
homogenous one and it consisted of different classes. There
were the businessmen, the poor ones, the sellers the
penniless ones. Unfortunately you couldn't find this social
and economical division in any books. For example there was
nothing about the elements of the society and you could
never find out under what economic circumstances the society
was formed. These were new topics at that time, because they
were ignored by the older ones. I made an attempt in this
field and about thirty years ago I published three volumes
of the social history. Although it was not a comprehensive
one, people liked it and I thought that I had to work
seriously on this field. The continuation of the work was
also received with open arms and I wrote ten volumes about
various aspects of the social life of the nation. I found it
useful to write the history of social changes in the recent
years. Because it shows the development of the culture and
civilization in Europe and I could share this information,
though not complete, with any one who wishes and there was
no harm in publishing it therefore I collected the data
starting with the ancient Rome and Greece and Renaissance u
until the present century.
Dr. Mesbah: Among the ancient writers and poets, considering
the higher excellence of the poetry, from the early history
of Iran up to the end of Ghajar Rein which of the poets own
a better poetry regarding the social matters? Especially for
someone like you?
Professor Ravandi: Regarding the comprehensiveness: Saadi
and from national point of view Ferdosi is matchless,
because he has created an undeniable masterpiece based on
the love of the country. Being comprehensive, Saadi has
covered all the matters of life and has a moral point on all
of them. He lived ling and traveled a lot. He knew two
languages perfectly. In this regard he is unique. The
foreigners also mention these elevated dimensions of his
work in encyclopedias. In his book names "Koliyat" you can
find a lot of social points, those that are in line with
religion and those that are against religion.
Dr. Mesbah? How about the contemporary poets?
Professor Ravandi: (laughing) I wish you had told me the
questions before, so that I could think about them!
Dr. Mesbah: Tell us something in brief.
Professor Ravandi: Maleko shoaraye Bahar is great,
interesting man and modern to some extent. He had been
involved in political plans and he was also interested in
social matters. In this respect he is really unique.
Dr. Mesbah: how about the modern poets?
Professor Ravandi: unfortunately I couldn't find the chance
to study it because of too much work, therefore if I say
anything it won't be true. I had neither the enthusiasm nor
the study. But since people like it so much, you can say now
it has been accepted.
Dr. Mesbah: is poetry a reliable source for investigating
the social history of a country?
Professor Ravandi: of course it is. Poetry is a symbol of
people's thought and spirit.
Dr. Mesbah: Regarding the study of social life, which is
superior, "Golestan" or "Bustan"?
Professor Ravandi: Of course "Golestan".
Professor Ravandi: Golestan Of course, because it has
covered all the aspects of Iranian life and has revealed the
hidden points. Maybe there won't be a second to him. All the
historical conditions accompanied with a unique talent made
up the masterpieces of Saadi.
Vali olah Shamshirbandi: Excuse me, you talked about Nader
Shah and as I think you don't think high of him…
Professor Ravandi: No, I believe you have to think of
positive and negative points of s character when criticizing
him. Look, Nader has done positive things; he has got us rid
of an annihilated dynasty. But after getting to thrown he
had no control over himself mentally. He sometimes got mad
and said that he wanted a thousand eyes from Mazandaran. He
is such a brute, maybe this brutality is not innate. He has
committed actions like this, now regard both the good ones
and the ones of this type, you can not think of a mediocre
man even. He has committed illogical and bad actions so it
is difficult to talk about him. Of course my opinion is not
of importance. All who have worked on this matter should
comment and people should come to conclusion base of all
those studies.
Vali olah Shamshirbandi: I would like to say that since
Nader Shah was contemporary with rapid changes in Europe and
at the same time Peter The Great came to thrown in Russia
and Sultan Salim Ghanin in Turkey, it was a difficult time
for Nader Shah and it was very possible to lose the country
and make it into parts and pieces. As it had happened
before and the Afghans, though not enemies and a part of
Iran then and now, carried out a plot and dethroned Shah
Sultan Hosein Safavi. But Nader defeated the Afghans
powerfully and sent them back to their state. He abolished
the scandalous treaty between Russia and Turkey that were
going to divide Iran for themselves. He made the inefficient
Shah Tahmasb live in seclusion and generally he could bring
back Iran to the ex-elegance it had and he could overcome
the few unpleasant previous decades. This is very important
in the history of Iran. Another point to mention that the
reliable historical documents say is about his son. When his
enemies saw him getting powerful and when he was shot at,
they paid some money to someone to confess that he had been
ordered by his son Reza Gholi Mirza, while it was not Reza
Gholi Mirza who had done this. It was the plot of the
enemies.
Professor Ravandi: these are all true. But Nader had to
think logically id it was possible for his son to do this or
no. it is difficult to judge it now at this time. It is
difficult to imagine the atmosphere and social situation of
that era and judge it because small things can lead in huge
and important disasters which we are ignorant about and are
hundreds of years away from them. Well, as I told you
before, I believe different people should give their ideas
about these things and those who are interested should put
them together and analyze it and get to a logical conclusion
and let people know it.
Dr. Mesbah: Master, has anybody from the ministry of
education and training, before or after revolution,
contacted you to teach the Social History of Iran in
schools?
Professor Ravandi: (laughing) never…I'm happy and grateful
that they didn't bother me! I always tell Mahin(his wife) we
got a score, thanks God that they have either forgotten us
or they think this work is so low that they didn't say
anything to us about it. But this silence and lack of
bothering is a blessing for us. I'm thankful that I could
publish these books at this age. The interesting point is
finishing this job and publishing these 10 volumes. Of
course I don't blame that this book is perfect but is the
first step taken. I'm sure later people will read these
books and hundreds of other books and will use their innate
talent to complete the History Of the Iranian Nation and the
Social History of Iran.
Dr. Mesbah: If optimistically we think it happens, at what
grade do you think this book can be thought to students?
Professor Ravandi: not at primary school but it's convenient
for the junior high school. We some times used to discuss
with Nasrollah Falsafi and the others that it is not the
history of the Nation of Iran taught at schools. Of course
Falsafi himself didn't believe in the nation of Iran like
the others. They didn’t understand that the base is the
nation of Iran. We have to pay attention to their
characteristics. For example if someone reads the History of
Beihaghi completely will know about the nation, their
emotions, beliefs and thoughts to some extent. But on the
whole in the history written after Islam there has been less
attention to the people. To know the spirit of people we
have to refer to some other sources like poetry. Because
poetry is national, it's the overflow of the feelings of the
poets. We can understand a lot of interesting social things
from poetry.
Dr Mesbah: Do you know how do they teach their history in
western countries?
Professor Ravandi: I have heard something but I'm not really
an expert. Of course my books knocked down many
orientalists, because there was so much lack of information
that when somebody wrote something it was highly
appreciated.
Dr. Mesbah: as I have seen in the west especially in France
History and then geography is one of the most important
subjects at school. I mean they give it more importance that
math to history and geography. One of my children went to
school in France from primary school and the other from high
school and they were imposed. I noticed that a history
teacher was really respected there. The way they teach
history and their point of view and even the questions on
the exams were very interesting and educational. All the
students in France have to study history, geography and
philosophy, no matter what kind of diploma are they going to
get. Of course they don't memorize but they are given some
text to study and give their own idea about that historical
era and defend their ideas while the teacher asks them
questions.
Professor Ravandi: Philosophy is of great importance,
because it's based on asking about the reasons of the things
and in dictator regimes asking question is forbidden.
Dr. Mesbah: what do you suggest to those of the same mind
and your students to do to continue this innovation of
yours?
Professor Ravandi: it is an interesting question but I this
there is no point in asking it. I believe every historian
can have his own ideas. You have to leave it with the
public. I might say many things but nobody would accept. But
when all these writings are read by people and they judged,
then we can say which parts are going to survive and which
are going to vanish. It's only the time that talks. For
example Saadi, could he ever imagine that is book will be so
warmly received after700-800 years and his ideas about
social and moral matters will stay this long? He was an
honest man, not pretending and he has revealed all his works
and God bless him that he was not********
(دماغ
کشی)
Dr. Mesbah: you mean your work should be frankly open and
later some people come and plan to continue it
systematically and follow this endless road.
Professor Ravandi: yes.
Dr. Mesbah: so you have no wish to continue it?
Professor Ravandi: No, by no means. It's a pointless effort.
You can't force these things they should be spontaneous.
Vali olah Shamshirbandi: what Mr. Ravandi
has done about the social history of Iran is an academic
work. I mean in future there should be a team of researchers
and follow what has done in 40-45 years all alone.
Professor Ravandi: it might happen
naturally.
Vali olah Shamshirbandi : they have to
appreciate Professor Ravandi who has spent his life to
compile this sublime work. But as he himself has told me
before he has been invited to academic celebrations if his
friends were in charge of that and have invited him but the
government has paid no attention to his work and has not
celebrated it.
Professor Ravandi: yes and there is no need to do so Mr.
Shamshirbandi! What you say implies that someone he himself,
the family or the friends insist on making the matter
public, but if the subject is valuable by nature no matter
if I or my family want or not, if friends help or not, the
subject will show up. There have been hundreds of poets and
writers after Islam but none of them became like Saadi,
Molavi or other men of letter. The passage of time reveals
the true ones and that garbage, as a friend calls,
evaporated because they were not worthy to be named. We
really have to leave all the scientific, literary and
poetical matters to the public and their taste. I don't
think it is right that people try to become famous
themselves. For example I can remember when I was a child
there were some people who wanted to gain fame by
themselves, they wanted to ne members of parliament, etc and
made lots of efforts and mostly they failed to do so. But
there were people like Modarres or people like him who
people believed in them, good or bad, right or wrong. They
would promote and become well-known.
[…]
Mehrdad Shamshirbandi: Master, among those who have done
research about Iran in the recent decade whose work do you
confirm?
Professor Ravandi: there are a lot…your question is to
general and I don't have a ready mind for that but Dr. Zarin
Kub has remarkable works and tens of others who I can't
remember due to my age![…]
Mehrdad Shamshirbandi: how about Mr. Fereydoon Damiyat?
Professor Ravandi: yes, Mr. Fereydoon Adamiyat is very good.
Accidentally I have read al his books, they are all
excellent. He has worked frankly and honestly. Of course
there are tens of others who have served the culture of
"Iran and have written precious books but I can't remember
their names because of my sickness and old age. The social
history of Iran won't be clear unless several people write
about it. This movement of writing and letting people know
and informing them started from the rein of Naseredin Shah
and maybe even before him and it has continued up to now.
Mirza Fath Ali Akhundzadeh was the
******** of these thoughts at his own time. He was
very brave and wrote something. I have referred to the words
and works of these men of letter as far I as I dared! When I
started my job the censorship was not as strict as now and
sometimes they would ignore it or maybe they didn't think my
work worthy of censoring so I could read and write to some
extent.
Vali olah Shamshirbandi: Now (1998) that Mr. Mohajerani is
the Minister of culture, the boundaries are less probably?
Professor Ravandi: yes… of course in no time nobody really
opposed me, they would prevented me but not seriously that
they lay siege to the house and arrest. Only once before the
revolution they broke into the house on behalf of Pahlavi
Rein and put the scripts in a sack and took them.
Vali olah Shamshirbandi: when was that?
Professor Ravandi: Mahin(Mrs. Mahin Mohaghegh, his wife)
knows these better. I might have forgotten. If she helps in
the discussion she can correct my mistakes.
Mrs. Ravandi: it was before our marriage, probably between
1951 and 1956.
Dr Mesbah: Mrs. Ravandi, what is the difference between
living with a scientist and a researcher with living with a
usual person? How is it?
Mrs. Ravandi: no difference, only you have to do everything
yourself (everybody laughs) looking after children, doing
all the housework, cooking and everything!
Professor Ravandi: that's true and there is no doubt. If I
really wanted to help her I couldn’t do even this imperfect
work. But she is too patient.
Dr. Mesbah: when Professor is writing his books does he
speak to you or consult with you or read them to you so that
you become interested and feel like reading them to see what
has he written?
Mrs. Ravandi: No, I don't have the time at all.
Professor Ravandi: she has shown no interest and no
disagreement.
Dr. Mesbah: For example you have never asked him to write
something about the social history of the women?
Mrs. Ravandi: he has written about this… I only asked him
to thank me at the beginning of one of his books that he
didn't do!
Professor Ravandi: I did, but I haven't published it yet!
It's in the last volume.
Dr. Mesbah: if your wife had the same ordinary expectations
which are mostly consuming, don't you think you would have
had problem in your job?
Professor Ravandi: our life has always been simple and free
of greed.
Mehrdad Shamshirbandi: Master, tell us about your latest
work which you are writing it.
Professor Ravandi: I'm writing the history of journalism in
Iran and Europe. I have collected some data. If I can, I'll
write it little by little.
(this work was left unfinished due to his death but it seems
his family are going to publish it as it is)
Mehrdad Shamshirbandi: is there anything you wish to write
about but you couldn't find the time or the chance?
Professor Ravandi: Of course there has been, no one can
blame he has written everything he has wished. But generally
they were not too many!
(This talk was done on a Friday 19 February 1999. He passed
away in 14 September 1999.)
Bibliography of his books:
Translations:
·
Human economics/******René
Side/Amir Kabir Publishing House
·
The life of Muslims in Middle
Ages/ Dr. Ali Mazaheri/ Sepehr Publishing House
Compilations:
·
The daily life of Iranians in
the passage of time/Guya Publishing House
·
The trend of culture and the
history of education and training in Iran and Europe/Guya
and Negah Publishing Houses
·
The trend of judgment and
administration of justice in Iran and Europe/ Cheshmeh
Publishing House
·
The social history of Iran/10
volumes, the forth and the seventh volume are two books
each/ Amir Kabir/Kasra/ Ruzbahan/Negah Publishing Houses
·
The history of social
changes/three volumes/ Amirkabir and Negah Publishing Houses
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